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February 20, 2019, 11:45:12 PM


Author Topic: If you play along with the Photo Of The Month, read this please.  (Read 11517 times)

Offline zubbuz

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Re: If you play along with the Photo Of The Month, read this please.
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2013, 11:35:56 AM »
But to add a unicorn to a farm scene certainly is on a slightly different level of manipulation, isn't it?  (and using your standard, it WOULD be allowable, right?) 
Allowable: Yes
Wise: No - depending of course on the theme - ie 'farm scene' bad idea 'fantasy scene' good idea

You are using an example of something that can't exist - we all know Apple has all unicorns locked up at Infinity Loop and grinds them up for inclusion in their products (that's what makes them magical)

Now if you just added a horse to a farm scene, assuming it was well done, no one would know the difference. That being said, if the theme was fantasy, then a chopped in unicorn would work :)

(starting a new box here...quoting can take up a lot of room)
That's one reason I don't object to "cleaning" up an image.  There's nothing worse than taking a beautiful lake side scenic shot only to see a discarded McDonalds sack at waters edge, yanno?
Completely agree

By the way..I rather enjoy this form of clarification and question asking.  It can only help put our PTOM works into a better focus (pun not intended). 
I look forward to hearing what the Upper Echelon have to say about this too.  :D
Same with this



Let me ask you from another viewpoint: Would you feel comfortable letting people believe you took that kind of shot when you know you didn't?  Personally, I couldn't do that and never would. 
I suppose it would be up to the comfort level of the submitter.
With that, there is the argument that you took all the shots (ie it's not like you are using stock photography) and therefore it is all your work...

Added to that, if composite work was known to be accepted in the competition, everyone would submit their shot blind, people would vote on what they think is coolest, then afterwards you can easily question the person on their shot, or they can easily describe what they did to create the image etc...
You are young. Life has been kind to you. You will learn.

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Offline Doodle

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Re: If you play along with the Photo Of The Month, read this please.
« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2013, 11:54:59 AM »
Now that you mention it, may be a "fantasy" theme (where chops are allowed) wouldn't be such a bad idea.  The only thing to that is not everyone has that capability so it would really be a limited contest.  I would worry that many would feel left out. Sooo...on further review as I type this: maybe not a PTOM but a definite contest.  Easy rules too: Just show all photos used to make the composite and say that ALL photos had to be taken by the submitter.  Heck of an idea if you think about it!

I honestly cannot say one way or the other on whether (at this point in time) manipulations are allowed in POTM.  Maybe our discussion will be able to help with that.  :)

Referring to our discussion on "unicorns" (I KNEW there was a reason I bought Apple!), do I understand you correctly in that if you can "fool" a person into believing you took a shot that you could not have taken, it's ok?  Just because it's realistic (as opposed to my beloved unicorn), its ok to let them think you took a shot that doesn't exist?   
I can come up with many examples of adding something to a photo where it would be realistic but totally not right.  One quick example: I take a shot of a nice quiet lake scene.  It lacks a focal point though so I go take a shot of a row boat elsewhere and add it to the scene.  It makes the photo complete because it now has a focal point.  Should that be allowed? I realize I could have bought or borrowed a boat to add to the scene but the truth is, it was never there.  I really can't see that as acceptable.
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Offline Snapper

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Re: If you play along with the Photo Of The Month, read this please.
« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2013, 11:55:40 AM »
My personal take:

It is called 'Photo of the Month' and we all expect a little editing to take place if only because it has to fit the 990x415 banner size. For me, correcting 'blemishes' is fine and I don't really want to get into the specifics of what a 'blemish' might be but a road sign would count as it has been added by man for some reason and may detract from the scene, similarly powerlines, unwanted people etc!

If anyone starts taking several shots of different objects or scenes and produces a composite then, my opinion only, it becomes an 'image' rather than a photograph. I know that others will argue that a photograph is an image but in my mind (a strange place to be at times, I realise) there are times when they do not equate.

The competition rules are clear that we are only permitted to enter one photograph and if you have shot a truck-full then you have to choose your best. A composite made up of several photos would, IMO, be breaking that rule and would never get my vote.

EDIT: I obviously do not include HDR shots because they are photos of the same scene...

Let the discussion continue... ;)
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 12:00:25 PM by Snapper »
I used to be a very negative person... but then I went digital.

Offline zubbuz

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Re: If you play along with the Photo Of The Month, read this please.
« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2013, 11:55:56 AM »
I think this is also the other thing - the overall motivation of the photographer...

A lot of photographers are exactly that - they are there to create photos, as in completely realistic representations of what they see - eg the extreme version of this is photo journalism - ie no editing, what they shoot is what is published.

Other photographers, and I include myself here, a lot of the time aim to create images - ie not necessarily realistic photos... Images that can not exist in real life but are created with photographic work, therefore essentially still photos... Eg a lot of my HDR work - that sometimes looks nothing like real life, but I love doing it! (admittedly, I prefer creating more realistic HDR stuff), and this also includes chopping - I aim to get the best result possible out of my work - eg with the fireworks - the shots of the fireworks, while cool because the fireworks were cool - I was crowded in by massive amounts of Americans and Canadians and my foreground was of blurry idiots jumping around trying to video or take photos of the fireworks with their friggn cell phones or tablets! Really irritating, but if I swing the fireworks around by 80-90 degrees I can see them over the Niagara falls!

All my photos, all my work, all my effort - combined to make one awesome shot that just happened to take 15 minutes to shoot....

Again, I respect your opinion on the matter, but I feel composites should be allowed because I feel it is a simple extension of the PP work we already do - of course everything that is in it has to be taken by the person and it would all have to be taken in the allotted time period....

As I said before - I think we just draw different lines in the same stretch of sand....



Reminds me of my favourite Friends quote
The Line Is A Dot To You
You are young. Life has been kind to you. You will learn.

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Offline Craig

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Re: If you play along with the Photo Of The Month, read this please.
« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2013, 12:00:44 PM »
(starting a new box here...quoting can take up a lot of room)
I have removed trash and even road signs from my images before. Heck I know I have removed power lines from scenic shots too.  I suppose I could have gone and cut down the power lines and road signs before taking the image but someone would get all testy if I did that. 
That's one reason I don't object to "cleaning" up an image.  There's nothing worse than taking a beautiful lake side scenic shot only to see a discarded McDonalds sack at waters edge, yanno?
But to add a unicorn to a farm scene certainly is on a slightly different level of manipulation, isn't it?  (and using your standard, it WOULD be allowable, right?)
That doesn't make sense to me. Either a photo is allowed to be manipulated in any way or only SOOC is allowed. If you need to remove trash or power lines from a shot, you should have taken it from a different angle.

I'd have to side with Zubbuz on all of his points
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Offline AndyCivil

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Re: If you play along with the Photo Of The Month, read this please.
« Reply #35 on: August 30, 2013, 12:01:07 PM »
Very interesting discussion, surprised it hasn't come up before. Clearly some adjustment is part of the skill of taking a photo, yet a composite of graphic creations clearly isn't, so where do you draw the line? I have no say in this, of course, but in my judgement I would set "lightroom" as the standard. If you can do it in LightRoom it's legitimate. If you need PhotoShop to do it, then it's 'shopped (LOL) and it's fake.

IMHO

Offline AndyCivil

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Re: If you play along with the Photo Of The Month, read this please.
« Reply #36 on: August 30, 2013, 12:04:31 PM »
That doesn't make sense to me. Either a photo is allowed to be manipulated in any way or only SOOC is allowed. If you need to remove trash or power lines from a shot, you should have taken it from a different angle.

Sorry, Craig I have to disagree. Sometimes, the power line is just "there" and there's no other angle available. I took the power line out of my totem pole and I have no shame in it. It's a photo of a totem pole, not a photo of what the street looks like that happens to have the totem pole in it. Difference.

Offline Craig

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Re: If you play along with the Photo Of The Month, read this please.
« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2013, 12:07:19 PM »
Very interesting discussion, surprised it hasn't come up before. Clearly some adjustment is part of the skill of taking a photo, yet a composite of graphic creations clearly isn't, so where do you draw the line? I have no say in this, of course, but in my judgement I would set "lightroom" as the standard. If you can do it in LightRoom it's legitimate. If you need PhotoShop to do it, then it's 'shopped (LOL) and it's fake.

IMHO
Aside from fantasy, with a good composite you will not know if post work has been done anyways.
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Offline zubbuz

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Re: If you play along with the Photo Of The Month, read this please.
« Reply #38 on: August 30, 2013, 12:08:32 PM »
Now that you mention it, may be a "fantasy" theme (where chops are allowed) wouldn't be such a bad idea.  The only thing to that is not everyone has that capability so it would really be a limited contest.  I would worry that many would feel left out. Sooo...on further review as I type this: maybe not a PTOM but a definite contest.  Easy rules too: Just show all photos used to make the composite and say that ALL photos had to be taken by the submitter.  Heck of an idea if you think about it!
Having a specific chopping comp on this forum would be awesome! Good idea dude... And I do agree that not everyone can chop like others can due to software limitations etc, but the same can be said with macro work - I am limited because I don't have a macro lens, but I would do my best with my kit lens....

Referring to our discussion on "unicorns" (I KNEW there was a reason I bought Apple!), do I understand you correctly in that if you can "fool" a person into believing you took a shot that you could not have taken, it's ok?  Just because it's realistic (as opposed to my beloved unicorn), its ok to let them think you took a shot that doesn't exist?   
I can come up with many examples of adding something to a photo where it would be realistic but totally not right.  One quick example: I take a shot of a nice quiet lake scene.  It lacks a focal point though so I go take a shot of a row boat elsewhere and add it to the scene.  It makes the photo complete because it now has a focal point.  Should that be allowed? I realize I could have bought or borrowed a boat to add to the scene but the truth is, it was never there.  I really can't see that as acceptable.
RE unicorn - my opinion is that that is fine all the time, just not wise all the time :) The idea behind creating composites IS to fool people - your aim is often to fool people into thinking that it all belongs in one shot - otherwise there would be no point in putting effort into blending the shots...

I'm fine with the boat example - as long as you shot everything :)



A composite made up of several photos would, IMO, be breaking that rule and would never get my vote.
So if the composite was so good that you couldn't tell, you would feel cheated if you found out later?

I view HDR in a similar way because you are combining multiple photos to bring out details that you can not capture in a single image - in fact more than you can capture with the human eye... You are making a composite of highly under and overexposed photos to, in my mind, create an image, not a photo...
You are young. Life has been kind to you. You will learn.

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Offline Doodle

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Re: If you play along with the Photo Of The Month, read this please.
« Reply #39 on: August 30, 2013, 12:12:00 PM »
(starting a new box here...quoting can take up a lot of room)
I have removed trash and even road signs from my images before. Heck I know I have removed power lines from scenic shots too.  I suppose I could have gone and cut down the power lines and road signs before taking the image but someone would get all testy if I did that. 
That's one reason I don't object to "cleaning" up an image.  There's nothing worse than taking a beautiful lake side scenic shot only to see a discarded McDonalds sack at waters edge, yanno?
But to add a unicorn to a farm scene certainly is on a slightly different level of manipulation, isn't it?  (and using your standard, it WOULD be allowable, right?)
That doesn't make sense to me. Either a photo is allowed to be manipulated in any way or only SOOC is allowed. If you need to remove trash or power lines from a shot, you should have taken it from a different angle.

I'd have to side with Zubbuz on all of his points

I really TRY to get the best angle on my shots but sometimes geography prevents that.
From what I have been able to read up on the subject, removing clutter (probably a loose definition) is actually acceptable in photos and I have been watching some tutorials over on Scott Kelby training where they all do the same thing. Cleaning up a photo is not only acceptable but they teach you the best ways to do it.  Not a one of them mentions adding something to a photo though.
And like I mentioned earlier: If it ever did have to come down to a vote of some kind, I would rather go SOOC before adding something that just wasn't there to begin with.
Take your camera with you dammit. You can't take your next "best photo" if your camera is sitting at home in the bag, now can you?

Offline zubbuz

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Re: If you play along with the Photo Of The Month, read this please.
« Reply #40 on: August 30, 2013, 12:13:02 PM »
I'd have to side with Zubbuz on all of his points
Woo! :P

Very interesting discussion, surprised it hasn't come up before. Clearly some adjustment is part of the skill of taking a photo, yet a composite of graphic creations clearly isn't, so where do you draw the line? I have no say in this, of course, but in my judgement I would set "lightroom" as the standard. If you can do it in LightRoom it's legitimate. If you need PhotoShop to do it, then it's 'shopped (LOL) and it's fake.

IMHO
I know - it's a brilliant discussion!
BUT I disagree - I go outside of LR for my NR and sharpening etc and a few other things (not just my compositing) and these are things that I can't really do in LR - one thing here is layering - even if you aren't compositing stuff, I still use layers for a lot of stuff to get definite control, and that is something LR can't do...
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Offline Doodle

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Re: If you play along with the Photo Of The Month, read this please.
« Reply #41 on: August 30, 2013, 12:15:09 PM »
Since it's lunch time and my wife is here (and she is prettier than any of you guys), I am gonna bail on this for a while. I will say one last thing (I think I already might have) though:
As a competitor, unless the rules specifically allowed manipulations, I don't think I would feel very damn proud of myself for winning a POTM with a shot that I could not have taken in one shot (like my boat example).  Maybe some don't mind "fooling" the others but I just won't ever do that. Ever.

Now...lunch with the lady!  ;D
Take your camera with you dammit. You can't take your next "best photo" if your camera is sitting at home in the bag, now can you?

Offline zubbuz

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Re: If you play along with the Photo Of The Month, read this please.
« Reply #42 on: August 30, 2013, 12:17:01 PM »
And like I mentioned earlier: If it ever did have to come down to a vote of some kind, I would rather go SOOC before adding something that just wasn't there to begin with.
Oooo - now that is a competition that I probably wouldn't take part in very often....

Also what is SOOC? Would we just have to upload an unaltered RAW file? or would we have to previously agree what profile to use because as has been discussed, JPEGs 'SOOC' have gone through the post processing you have defined in-camera....
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Offline zubbuz

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Re: If you play along with the Photo Of The Month, read this please.
« Reply #43 on: August 30, 2013, 12:18:47 PM »
Since it's lunch time and my wife is here (and she is prettier than any of you guys), I am gonna bail on this for a while. I will say one last thing (I think I already might have) though:
As a competitor, unless the rules specifically allowed manipulations, I don't think I would feel very damn proud of myself for winning a POTM with a shot that I could not have taken in one shot (like my boat example).  Maybe some don't mind "fooling" the others but I just won't ever do that. Ever.

Now...lunch with the lady!  ;D
Have a good lunch - don't let us keep you from your other half!
You are young. Life has been kind to you. You will learn.

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Offline zubbuz

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Re: If you play along with the Photo Of The Month, read this please.
« Reply #44 on: August 30, 2013, 12:25:46 PM »
As a competitor, unless the rules specifically allowed manipulations, I don't think I would feel very damn proud of myself for winning a POTM with a shot that I could not have taken in one shot (like my boat example).  Maybe some don't mind "fooling" the others but I just won't ever do that. Ever.
I think my issue with this is that when I take a sunset shot - single image, no combining of exposures, no compositing - I work the hell out of it and sometimes easily end up with a shot that looks nothing like the sunset I took the shot of - I aim to make it look as spectacular as I possibly can...

Therefore with a single image I have 'fooled' you into thinking I witnessed something far nicer than I actually did...

I don't process or chop images with the intention to 'fool' people, I see that as an extremely negative way of viewing things, I edit and chop to create the best image that I can so others can potentially (and hopefully) enjoy my work as much as possible - I don't do it to make people feel stupid, I do it to make them feel good, or involved, or interested, or thoughtful...

If someone wants to think that I have done it specifically to fool them and make fun of them, I see that as their insecurity, not as any form of fault on my part...

EDIT: If I see an image that I later realise or am told is a composite and that I could not work it out initially, I don't feel fooled or cheated, I am impressed at the work the person did, I'm impressed with their PP abilities etc...
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 12:30:38 PM by zubbuz »
You are young. Life has been kind to you. You will learn.

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