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May 22, 2012, 03:18:35 AM


Author Topic: Formatting madness  (Read 225 times)

Offline AndyCivil

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Formatting madness
« on: February 02, 2012, 07:55:31 AM »
So I have a "non Sandisk" memory card - a Patriot LX series Class 10 16Gb card, which I've measured to meet its spec for write speed. I got the "recording has stopped automatically" message. I thought "What?". I tried it again: I saw that the buffer icon appeared momentarily with a single bar in it, and then I got the message again. So I thought I'd try out this theory that formatting the card fixes the problem... I formatted it, (not even a low level format) and the problem went away.

I'm concerned and uncomfortable about this because there's no logical reason for it. Up until recently, I've been telling people that there's no need to format. There must be something going on that's related to the wear-levelling process, or whatever it is about Sandisk cards that Canon apparently recommend them as most compatible. I've searched on the Internet, and I can't find any explanation, just a load of blah. (Expert opinion is meaningless to me, I don't meekly do what experts say.)

If there are any tech-heads out there that understand flash memory and can explain why formatting a card makes it work faster than erasing all the files on it, I'm definitely buying you a latte.

P.S. just saying that "erasing the files leaves the data in the memory" doesn't cut it, because the non-low-level format which I did also left the file data in memory.

Offline tekwiz

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Re: Formatting madness
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2012, 04:35:32 PM »
As I understand it low level formatting a flash memory card puts the card back to the unprogrammed state. High level formatting is just reapplying a file system, your data is still retrievable.

My guess?
Since we know data gets corrupted from time to time, this corruption can be insignificant enough to not cause any major issues, but significant enough to cause an issue with the write process of the camera. Laying down a new file system somehow fixes this. I honestly don't understand why either, but I have used a Transcend 6 card since I got the camera and formatting the card in camera has fixed issues for me as well. Something I cannot do now due to the way I have ML "installed". Fortunately I haven't had any issues lately.

Does Sandisk have the industry's lowest rated error spec? Maybe that's why Canon advises using them? I honestly don't know.
One time, this guy handed me a picture of him, he said,"Here's a picture of me when I was younger." Every picture is of you when you were younger. "Here's a picture of me when I'm older." How'd you pull that off? Lemme see that camera... what's it look like? -Mitch Hedberg

Offline Bif

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Re: Formatting madness
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2012, 01:02:39 AM »
Does Sandisk have the industry's lowest rated error spec? Maybe that's why Canon advises using them? I honestly don't know.

Actually Hoodman RAW may have the best record in that respect.  SanDisk and Hoodman RAW seem to generate the fewest problem reports concerning flash media.

There was a bunch of problem reports for awhile concerning SanDisk 16GB and 32GB CF cards in Canon 7D cameras.  Some were even sending their cameras in to Canon for repairs.  Finally Canon listened and quietly issued a firmware update that seems to have taken care of the problem.  Anyone with a Canon 7D who does not have firmware ver 1.2.5 should download it from Canon's website and run the update.

I never saw the problem in my 7D because all I could afford were 8GB CF cards.

Bruce Foreman

Offline bandmandq

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Re: Formatting madness
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2012, 07:59:42 AM »
(Expert opinion is meaningless to me, I don't meekly do what experts say.)


Andy,

A math teacher I worked with explained "An Expert" to me like this:

In math, "X" is an unknown and a "spirt" is a "drip under pressure."

Therefore, he concluded, an Expert is an "Unknown Drip under pressure."

 ;)
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 08:02:04 AM by bandmandq »
Canon T2i w/18-135mm lens
Canon TL w/ 50mm 1.8, 35mm 2.8, 135mm 3.8, 250mm 5.6

Offline AndyCivil

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Re: Formatting madness
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2012, 08:32:57 AM »
... an Expert is an "Unknown Drip under pressure."
I've known that joke for a while with "ex" as in "has-been" but I think I like your version better!

Offline bandmandq

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Re: Formatting madness
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2012, 08:56:30 AM »
... an Expert is an "Unknown Drip under pressure."

I've known that joke for a while with "ex" as in "has-been" but I think I like your version better!


Well, glad you enjoyed!

I just found this link with a quick Google search on Low Level Format.  I am sure you already found it, but it answers a lot to me.  I was one for always doing that low level format, just didn't know why.

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=111395

Hope this helps.

bandmandq
Canon T2i w/18-135mm lens
Canon TL w/ 50mm 1.8, 35mm 2.8, 135mm 3.8, 250mm 5.6

Offline Bif

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Re: Formatting madness
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2012, 10:35:18 AM »
After reading that linked discussion I remembered reading someplace that the UDMA Compact Flash cards did have an improved onboard controller.  So I checked my cameras. 

The 7D (uses CF cards) does not offer a low level format option.  There is just "format".  Several corrupted SanDisk CF card reports/complaints all had one common factor.  The operator did NOT format the card, either after purchase or after use.  They habitually shoved the card in the camera and as they needed to, simply deleted images from the card. 

One other group of complaints on SanDisk CF media corruption all pertained to 7D users and 16GB and 32GB cards.  Canon eventually issued a firmware upgrade (ver 1.2.5) that seems to have solved that problem.

My 60D and T3i both offer a low level format option.  Pressing the "trashcan" button toggles between check and uncheck that "box".  I use it, it's gotta be there for a reason.

I use SanDisk, format the card (in camera) first thing after purchase, and after each use (once I have my image/video files safely on two external hard drives) and I've never had a card problem.  If you choose to believe this to be "formatting madness" that is your prerogative.  You may stand a very good chance of losing something down the road.

Most pro's do format media regularly.
 

Offline AndyCivil

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Re: Formatting madness
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2012, 11:09:45 AM »
My 60D and T3i both offer a low level format option.  Pressing the "trashcan" button toggles between check and uncheck that "box".  I use it, it's gotta be there for a reason.

Oh, it's there for a reason all right. As I understand it, these are your erasure options:

1. Deleting files: changes the first letter of the filename to 0xE5 which labels it as deleted; marks all the relevant sectors as 'unused'.
2. Quick format: writes an empty directory structure, and labels all the sectors as unused.
3. Low-level format: writes an empty directory structure, and labels all the sectors as unused, and writes "0" to all memory locations, removing your old photo data.

So a low-level format would be useful if you had nude pics of your wife and wanted to sell the card on, yet be sure that no one could recover the files. Not so useful for a professional photographer where you might just need that recovery option one day.

I use SanDisk, format the card (in camera) first thing after purchase, and after each use (once I have my image/video files safely on two external hard drives) and I've never had a card problem.  If you choose to believe this to be "formatting madness" that is your prerogative.  You may stand a very good chance of losing something down the road.

You misunderstand me, Bif - I'm not arguing with you. I've never said there's anything wrong with formatting instead of deleting, but hitherto I've always claimed that it's equivalent since no one has offered any explanation as to why it would be otherwise. However, I do think that low-level formatting is a bit stupid because it takes longer, and writes over your photo data, which doesn't gain you anything but removes your option to recover it later.

Now that I've noticed a real difference between formatting (quick) and erasing, I have started doing a quick format instead. What is "madness" is the fact that I'm doing this on purely empirical evidence, and not for any rational reason.

I have read that thread linked to, and it's interesting for sure, but it contains opinions which are sound, and opinions which are clearly wrong-headed, with no way to tell the difference. The only real way to the truth is for someone to come up with a reason that passes a 'plausibility test' - something I can put a label on, but can't define - which satisfies me that it shows that the opinion behind it is true.

Most pro's do format media regularly.

And some interested amateurs, now ;-)